xt7ghx15n26h https://exploreuk.uky.edu/dips/xt7ghx15n26h/data/mets.xml Pingree, Enoch Merrill, 1817-1849. 1845  books b92-270-32003734 English J.A. James ; New York : Redfield ; Noble & Dean / : Cincinnati : Louisville : Contact the Special Collections Research Center for information regarding rights and use of this collection. Salvation.Rice, N. L. (Nathan Lewis), 1807-1877. Debate on the doctrine of universal salvation  / held in Cincinnati, O., from March 24, to April 1, 1845. Between Rev. E. M. Pingree and Rev. N. L. Rice ; taken down by a reporter, and revised by the parties. text Debate on the doctrine of universal salvation  / held in Cincinnati, O., from March 24, to April 1, 1845. Between Rev. E. M. Pingree and Rev. N. L. Rice ; taken down by a reporter, and revised by the parties. 1845 2002 true xt7ghx15n26h section xt7ghx15n26h 


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          A   DE B ATE



              ON THE DOCTRINE OF



UNIVERSAL SALVATION:


                 HELD IN


  CINCINNATI, O., FROM MARCH 24, TO APRIL 1, 1845.


                 B E T W E E N



        REV. E. M. PINGREE,
PASTOR OF THE FIRST UNIVERSALIST CHURCH, LOUISVILLE, KY.

                  A N D

        REV. N. L. RICE, D. D.
PASTOR OF THE CENTRAL PRESBYTERIAN CHURCH, CINCINNATI, 0.



    Taken down by a Reporter,

           A N D

REV18ED BY THE PARTIES.



        CI N C INN A T I:
   PUBLISHED BY J. A. JAMES.
G. J. JONES. NEW YORK: J. S. REDFIELD.
     LOUISVILLE: NOBLE & DEAN.

             1 845.

 


                      CERTIFICATE.
                                 CINCINNATI, April 26, 1845.
  HAVING carefully examined the Stenographer's Report of the
within discussion, and compared it with our notes and memoran-
dums, we hesitate not to commend it to the public, as a full exhibi-
tion of the facts, documents and arguments, used by us on the ques-
tion debated.                               E. M. PINGREE,
                                            N. L. RICE.



Ste-ectg-ped by J. A. James



Entered according to Act of Congress, in the year 1845, by
                 J.. A. JAMES,
  In the Clerk's Office for the District Court of Ohio.

 

               CORRESPONDENCE

   BETWEEN E. M. PINGREE AND N. L. RICE.



              Proposal to Rev. N. L. Rice.
                              Louisville, Nov. 9, 1844.
  REV. AND DEAR SIR-I have recently seen in different re-
ligious periodicals the following
  " PROPOSAL.-Dr. Robert J. Breckenridge, of Baltimore,
Revs. N. L. Rice, of Cincinnati, and Wm. S. Plumer, of
Virginia, will meet at any convenient time and place bishop
Whelan and any two others whom he may select; or we
will meet any three Roman bishops, archbishops, cardinals,
priests, or deacons, and discuss with them this question-
'Is the Romish church the church of Christ!' The bishop
and his friends may affirm, and -we will deny. Or we will
affirm that ' the Romish church is not the church of Christ,'
and they may deny. Or two of us will meet any two of
them on the terms stated above. The ordinary and equal
rules of such debate to be adopted hereafter. The above is
a standing proposal."
  In the "True Catholic," published in Louisville, I also
find the following note from your pen, copied from the
"Watchman of the South:"
  " THE DiscussIoN.-Although the proposition for a public
discussion with the Papists, to which you did me the honor
to attach my name, was originally made without my knowl-
edge, yet, not doubting that the circumstances demanded it,
I cordially sanctioned it. I had no expectation, however,
that it would be acceded to. The Roman clergy have be-
come too wise to expose their cause thus. There is in error
a conscious weakness, which causes its advocates to shrink
from a thorough investigation of its claims. Your proposi-
tirrn. however, will prove to the unprejudiced, that we have
all -afidence in the principles we advocate, and are willing
to have them subjected to the closest scrutiny.
                     Yours, truly,     N. L. RICE."
      2

 



CORRESPONDENCE.



  Now, Rev. sir, in view of this, your challenge to the Ro-
manists, and especially of your remarks last quoted, in rela-
tion to the "' conscious weakness (jf ERROR," I would respectfully
make you the following proposal, to test "' the confidence you
have in the principles you advocate," relating to the immor-
tal destiny of the human race. I do this the more readily,
because you are known to be fond of public controversy, and
have the reputation of being a good disputant; so that you
will hardly decline the present offer of a discussion on the
merits of lniversalism and Partialism.
  PROPOSAL.-I will meet you, Providence permitting, at any
convenient time, in the city of Louisville, and discuss with
you the question-" Do the Scriptures teach the ultimate ho-
liness and salvation of all men!" or, "Do the Scriptures
teach the endless misery of any portion of mankind 1" either
or both, as you choose; to be conducted according to the
usual and equal rules of controversy, as may be agreed upon
hereafter.
  A similar proposal has been made to your friend, Doctor
Breckenridge, of Baltimore; and I think he has accepted it.
Another has been made to your other friend, the Rev. Mr.
Plumer, if I mistake not, and he has declined it. I hope
you, dear sir, will not decline this, but accept it at once;
for what is the question-" Is the Romish church the church
of Christ!" compared with that most momentous inquiry-
What is to be the immortal doom of the human soul 1 Shall
it be pure and holy, finally, to rejoice forever in the glory of
heaven or, Shall it remain impure and unholy, to curse
God and endure "1 all hell-horrors" throughout eternity!
  I moreover anticipate a ready acceptance of this invitation,
from the fact of your having recently discussed with the Rev.
Alexander Campbell, questions of infinitely less importance
than the one I now propose to you; as of Baptism, its mode,
subjects, objects, &c.
  Hoping to hear from you at your earliest convenience, 1
remain, respectfully, your humble servant,
                                      E. M. PINGREE.

           Reply to E. M. Pingree's challenge.
  MEssRs. EDITORs-I received through the post-office, a few
days since, your paper of November 30th, in which I find
a proposition, or challenge, from one of you (Mr. Pingree) to
a public discussion of the merits of Universalism. I have
never given a challenge of this kind to any one. My name



vi

 



was used by Dr. Plumer, in his proposition to the Roman
bishop of Virginia, without my knowvledge, and, as I stated in
the article to which Mr. P. refers, the thing was approved by
me, because my confidence in his prudence forbade me to
doubt that the circumstances fully justified his course. Yet
I am not opposed to public debates; nor do I feel at liberty
to decline a proposition of the kind, provided the subject be
one, the discussion of which is desirable, and the challenger
be a man in whose ability to do the subject justice, his breth-
ren have confidence.
  Much good, I doubt not, would result from a thorough
discussion of the merits of Universalism, properly conducted;
but whether Mr. Pingree is considered by his brethren capa-
ble of doing justice to the subject-whether they would be
willing to trust the defence of their views to him, I have no
means of knowing. If, however, the Universalists desire a
discussion, a few of their leading preachers and members can
easily signify through their paper their confidence in Mr. Pin-
gree's ability; or they can select a man in whom they have
confidence, and they shall be accommodated; provided, the
discussion occurs in Cincinnati, (which, for obvious reasons,
is preferred to Louisville,) and be reported by one or more
competent stenographers, and published.
  I cannot consent to turn aside from other important en-
gagements, to enter into a thorough discussion of this sub-
ject, unless it be given to the public in a permanent form,
that it may be extensively read. Nor can I consent to meet
a man in whom his own party have not confidence; for then
his failure to sustain himself would be attributed to the wveak-
ness of the man, not to the indefensibleness of his cause,
and thus my labor would be lost.
  Now, Messrs. Editors, you have my reply. I should not
have challenged you to a debate. My engagements are such
as fully occupy my time. But as you have challenged me,
thus making it impossible for me, without seeming to shrink
from the defence of truth, to avoid a discussion, you must
meet the responsibility. Very respectfully,
                                          N. L. RIcE.

                Mr. Pingree to Mr. Rices
                              Cincinnati, Jan. 3, 1845.
  DEAR SiR-Your reply to my first letter reached me in
due course of publication of the "Star in the West," dated
December 14.



VIL



CORRESPONDENCE.

 

Viii                CORRESPONDENCE.
  I invited you to an oral discussion, to be held in Louis-
ville. You have declined acceptance, for reasons which you
pronounce "obvious," and I prefer declining your invitation
to Cincinnati, for reasons which you will please consider
equally obvious; and its publication in the manner you pro-
pose-from the fact that I now have a discussion nearly
ready for the press, on the same subject, lately held with the
REV. JOHN N. XWALLER. Thus far, therefore, we are even.
  I now propose a sort of compromise, which may be the
means of meetindg some of the conditions named in your let-
ter, making the discussion more " thorough" and satisfactory,
and more extensively read. I invite you to a written corres-
pondence on the questions noted in my first communication.
The editor of the " Star" has freely tendered me the use of his
columns as the medium of my letters, which you may con-
sider a sufficient evidence of my standing in the Universalist
denomination. All I now ask on your part, is, that you ob-
tain the use of the columns of a Presbyterian paper with one
third the circulation of the "1 Star,"-about 3,500 copies-
which you can readily do, if your friends have the same con-
fidence in you that mine have in me; each paper to publish
both sides. When the discussion is ended, the letters may
be rendered permanent by publication in book form, if de-
sirable.
  Owingr to my unintentional delay in answering your letter,
I shall send you this to-day-so that it, and your reply, if re-
ceived in season-say next Monday noon-may be published
together in next week's "Star." Not presuming that you can
ascertain, so soon, whether you will be able to obtain the use
of a Presbyterian paper for the discussion, I only respectfully
ask an-early expression of your willingness or unwillingness
to accept the present proposal, in case of succeeding in this
respect. Respectfully yours,       E. M. PINGREE.
                 Mr. Rice to Mr. Pingree.
                                 Cincinnati, Jan. 4, 1845.
MR. E. M1. PINGREE:
  Dear Sir-Your letter, in reply to mine, was received on
yesterday afternoon. Your challenge was published on Nov.
30th. My reply was sent in time, as I supposed, for the next
paper, but was not published till Dec. 14th. It is now three
weeks since it appeared. Your letter does not explain the
cause of your delay in replying, which, from the zeal mani-
fested in your challenge, was certainly unexpected.

 



  The contents of your letter are by no means such as 1 had
expected. You challenge me to a public discussion of the
merits of Universalism, and this, from the fact that Doctors
Plumer and Breckenridge were also challenged, I presume
was a concerted matter. I did not decline, but agreed to
accept your challenge on certain conditions. One wlas, that
I should have some evidence that your brethren are willing
to trust the defence of their views to you. This you do not
pretend to consider unreasonable. The second was, that the
debate should be in Cincinnati, not in Louisville. You wvill
scarcely pretend that the challenging party has the exclusive
rigrht to determine the place where the discussion shall be held.
Certainly I was not prepared to believe, that a chivalrous
gentleman, like yourself, would first challenge me to a debate,
and then positively insist on my meeting him in his own
city. I preferred Cincinnati, chiefly because Universalism is
much more prevalent here, and in Ohio, than in Kentucky.
A discussion in this city, therefore, would excite more inter-
est; and I should have the opportunity of add. ssing au-
diences, a small portion of which, at least, are inclined to
Universalism. I can conceive of no reason why the Uii-
versalists, if they really desire a discussion, should decline
having it in Cincinnati.
  The only other condition was, that the debate should be
published. This you decline, because you are about to pub-
lish a debate on the same subject, with another individual;
and yet you propose a written discussion, to be published
twice-first in two newspapers, and then in a book! ! ! I can-
not accept the new proposition. Newspaper discussions are
generally tedious, and soon become uninteresting. Indeed I
presume Mr. P. did not expect me to accept it. It "'as pro-
bably considered the best method of terminating the matter.
  In my reply, I stated that if the Universalists desired a
discussion, they were at liberty to select a man in whom
they have entire confidence. I did so, because they have
long and constantly expressed the most earnest desire for
public discussion, and have complained, as well as boasted,
that their invitations and challenges were not accepted by
ministers of a different faith. Mr. Abel C. Thomas, now of
Cincinnati, stated, in a letter to Dr. Ely, of Philadelphia,
"that the Universalists anxiously desired a thorough investigation
of the merits of the doctrine they profess ;" and complained
" that it has been the general policy of the Partialists to avoid
and discourage all direct discussion with the Universalists.



lx



CORtE SPOINDEACE .

 



And the editor of the " Christian Warrior," a Universalist
paper, in an article headed "' Consisfency of flee Presbyterian
Clergy," whilst condemning me in no very measured terms
for not having accepted a challenge in that paper, which I
never saw, thus discourses concerning Presbyterian minis-
ters: "They have assailed from their pulpits, and through
their newspapers, and by means of their tracts, and in nume-
rous other ways, the Universalists and their doctrine. We
have denied and disproved their assertions. through every
medium at our command, and challenged them again and
again to fair, open, manly, and candid discussion of our sen-
timents. But with very few exceptions, all such challenges
have been unheeded." And, after noticing Mr. Pingree's chal-
lenge, he says-' W e shall be anxious to hear from the wor-
thy challenger of the Catholics, and learn by what means he
will escape from the corner into which he is driven."
  It was in view of complaints and boastings such as these,
that I gave the Universalists an opportunity, if they did not
choose to trust the defence of their views to Mr. Pingree,
(who. I learn, is a young man,) to select one in whom they
had the utmost confidence. Since they have now had a fair
opp rrtunity for a thorough discussion of the merits of Uni-
versalism-an opportunity sought and obtained by their own
ministers-I hope they will henceforth cease either to corn-
plain or to boast. Very respectfully,    N. L. RICE.
                 Mr. Pingree to Mr. Rice.
                               Louisville, Jan. 9, 1845.
MR. N. L. RicE:
  Dear Sir-I received your last letter through the columns
of the " Star" of this week, and hasten to answer it; endea-
voring to do so in the same manner and spirit as if it con-
tained no sneers or insinuations about my wishing to i' ter-
rninate the matter," &c. Permit me to most earnestly assure
you, sir, that I do not wish to " terminate the matter ;" and
it will not be " terminated " without a discussion-unless by
yourself.
  I invited you to a discussion in Louisville: this was a part
of tfle proposal itself. And I did not anticipate the substitu-
tion of another place, or its publication by stenographers;
still, I have not " positively insisted " on your " meeting me
in my own city." I preferred holding the discussion here,
because, of course, I more especially desire the promotion of
our Faith in this city and vicinity; and because there have



x



CORRESPON4DEN-CE,

 



been many discussions held in Cincinnati and neighborhood.
1 thought one more necessary and called for here, than else-
where. But I say no more of this condition of your accepting
my proposal; for, although the place was as much a part of
the challenge, as the questions to be-discussed, yet I do not
"claim the exclusive right to determine the place."
  I will now-as I did not in my last letter-speak particular-
ly of your requiring the Universalists to express their willing-
ness "d to trust the defence of their views to me." You say I
"do not pretend to consider this unreasonable." Sir, I do con-
sider it unreasonable and out of place; although I did not speak
of it directly in my preceding reply. I presume I am as exten-
sively, and for as long a timte known as a disputant, (though a
"young man,") as yourself, besides being associated several
years with Rev. Mr. Gurley in the editorial department of the
"s Star in the West." If you knew nothing of me, you might
have easily declined any controversy with me, on account of
my obscure position; and have so saved me the virtual insult
of being required to be INDORSED, in order to meet you in de-
bate. You could not imagine, Sir, that I would submit my-
self to any such humiliating terms; however much I might
desire a discussion with you. I trust you will pardon this
manner of speaking of myself, and I will pass to notice ano-
ther matter-for what I have said must suffice on this sub-
ject-on my part at least.
  A few words now in relation to another point of difference
between us-the publication of an oral discussion. You de-
sired the discussion to be "permanent " and "1 thorough ;" and
proposed that it be taken down by stenographers, and pub-
lished. I did not wish to publish it in that manner, because
I had been engaged in one, recently, on the same subject,
with another person, now nearly ready for the press ; at least
I did not wish to do it NOW, for obvious reasons.
  On this account, and at the same time to meet your desire
for the discussion to be " permanent " and "i thorough," I of-
fered the compromise contained in my last letter-that the dis-
cussion he a written one, carried on through the columns of a
Universalist and Presbyterian paper; and to be put in book-
forin afterwards, "if desiratle,"-a phrase you seem not to
have noticed, in your attempt to make me appear inconsistent
with myself. If you are really willing to discuss the merits
of Universalism and Partialism, as I have no doubt you are;
and desire its publication so as to reach and benefit the most
persons, especially Universalists, (of whom you say there



xi1



COR-RESPONiDENCE .

 

Xii                 CORRESPONDENCE.
are more in Cincinnati and Ohio, than here, as a reason why
the discussion should be there,) why not accede to this
proposal! You would thus reach ten times, perhaps twenty
times as many Universalists through the " Star" alone, as by
an oral discussion; and 1 only asked you to furnish another
paper, so that I could be speaking to Presbyterians at the
same time. I was willing it should be made into a book af-
terxvards, " if desirable ;" because it could be done thus with
much less trouble and expense than by stenographers, and
because the close of a written correspondence would be so long
after the publication of my discussion with M1r. Waller, that
I should have no objection to have another book put forth, on
the same subject; should it then be found expedient or desi-
rable. Certainly, you did not imagine your remark, that
" newspaper discussions are generally tedious, and soon be-
come uninteresting," to be an " obvious reason " for not ac-
cepting my last offer. I believe the contrary to be true; for
the most interesting and useful discussion of Universalism
and Partialism, ever published, was conducted in this man-
ner ; I mean the one between Dr. Ely and Rev. Mr. Thomas.
  I have now, Mr. Rice, presented more in detail, than I at
first intended, the reasons for my preferring the discussion to
take the form proposed in my last. I sincerely hope they
may prove satisfactory to your mind; and that, after careful-
ly reviewing the whole matter, you will readily yield your
assent to an offer so nearly meeting your wishes in several
respects. Before positively refusing it, I pray you to serious-
ly reflect on the propriety of your neglecting so favorable an
opportunity of speaking to several thousand persons, in rela-
tion to a doctrine that you believe is endangering their souls,
and exposing them to endless and unutterable damnation.
  Hoping to hear from you, at your earliest convenience, I
remain, with sentiments of respect,
                       Yours, &c.,   E. Al. PINGREE.

                 Mr. Rice to Mr. Pingree.
 MR. E. M. PIuGREE:
   Dear Sir-Your letter of the 9th in reply to mine, came to
band on yesterday. As I had declined your new proposition,
I supposed our correspondence at an end. Your last seems
designed as a defence of your course in relation to your chal-
lenge. It is not satisfactory-so it appears to me.
   You say the place of holding the discussion (Louisville)
 "was a part of the proposal itself." Yes, and you might,

 



with equal propriety, have included in the proposal, as a com-
ponent part of it, all the preliminaries. I cannot but be sur-
prised that one so long, and so extensively known as a dispu-
tant, as you profess to have been, should attempt to make the
place of conducting a discussion a part of a challenge to dis-
cuss.
  Again, you say you have 70! positively insisted on my
meeting you in your own city. Yet you positively declined
meeting me in Cincinnati, and named no other place. This
looks very much like making the place (your ow n city) a sine
qua non.
  After refe